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Today, the call is coming from inside the house. And there isn’t a better person to talk to than EAG Advertising & Marketing’s own Wynn Shepard, Director of Web Product, when the topic is Search Engine Optimization and AI search. We’re going to find out why we see what we see in search. We’re also seeing new traffic to websites from AI and business owners want to know how to get ranked for AI search, so we’re about to find out.
TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the Small Business Miracles
podcast. I’m Jeff Randolph. This small business
podcast is brought to you by EAG Advertising
and Marketing. We’re going to talk about marketing,
and we’re also here to celebrate entrepreneurs.
We have marketing news and advice that business
owners can use to keep moving forward. Today,
we’re talking to EAG’s own Wynn Shepard about
why we see what we see when we search for something
online. And we’re doubling down on our conversation
with Wynn. because we’re also giving some tips
about the evolving world of AI search. Let’s
get right to it. We’re here in the featured section.
It’s a weird combination of feature and tip section
today, because I’m here with Wynn Shepard. He’s
the director of web product here at EAG. Wynn,
welcome to the show. Howdy, Jeff. I’m happy to
see you again, like I see you all the time, every
day. You’ve been here years. You started in
The profile picture we have for you on
the website, for those people who have now flocked
to the website to find out who we’re talking
to, you are years old in that photo. Yeah,
I look like a child. We’re definitely going to
get new photos for the website. I know that’s
on the list, so we’re due for new ones. But we
do this sometimes. We try to get the best people
to come on the podcast and give tips to our entrepreneurs
and the audience. But sometimes, just sometimes,
folks, the call comes from inside the house.
We’ve traced a call. It’s coming from inside
the house. And that’s what’s happening today.
We’re combining a tip and a featured interview
because this is important stuff. We want to dive
into it and talk about. search engine optimization,
and search ranking. And then we can talk about
some AI search. Does that sound good? We’re on
board for that today? Yeah, sounds good. See,
he talks about it all day long, all the time
anyway. Let’s start with search itself and rankings
and Google results and learn more. I will do
this sometimes. I will Google EAG advertising
and marketing. And in my heart, I know that I’m
the wrong person to do that and that I should
trust the tools and what they’re telling me.
But sometimes I see our search results. And I
wonder why I’m seeing what I’m seeing. And when
we look at search results, like if we are looking
at search results for somebody, what are we looking
at? We’re not just doing a Google search. We’re
using tools that are designed specifically to
look for an average of searches. And like, here’s
what actual performance is. What tools are we
using for these kinds of things? Yeah, we’re
using tools like Moz, Ahrefs, SEMrush. Really
the best tool for this is Moz because it can
let you search by location. So if I’m searching
for advertising and marketing, I can set it to
be a search that’s based in Kansas City or a
search that’s based in St. Louis. And that will
show you different results. Different results.
Yeah, because it knows a lot about us. Google
knows a lot about us from all kinds of reasons.
So it’s not going to give us the same kind of
results as these tools will. And so we’re trusting
these tools. Yeah, and Google’s really trying
to give you the version of the internet that
will help you the fastest. Yeah, so yeah, it
is a product. Google is a product. Google wants
to make you happy. by giving you the right results
super fast when you do a search. So there are
many factors that go into that. Let’s talk about
some of the factors that are going to impact
what we see when we search and why we need to
trust some tools to do this. So first one may
be… As I mentioned, location. So if I’m, it
works both ways for if I’m searching for advertising
and marketing, it will customize that search
to give you local results. And it knows that
because? Because of your IP address, your GPS
on your phone, many different ways. The creepy.
You wear a tinfoil hat. Yes. And just make sure
that, you know, you’re being safe with your data.
Um, so your IP address or, uh, like if you’re,
if you’re actually typing in, in Kansas city.
Yeah. So it will actually give you one thing
that we’ve noticed for clients is that if you
were trying, if you were typing in Kansas city
at the end of a search term, it’s going to give
you one result. But if you were typing that,
uh, search query and when you were in St. Louis,
it’s going to give you a completely different.
answer because of your IP address and different
factors. So it’s still going off of that IP address,
whether or not you type in a city name, it’s
still taking that into consideration. Yeah. And
even if you’re in incognito mode. Got it. Even
in incognito. So, cause that is, that is one
of the things that we, we trick ourselves into
thinking that if I’m, if I’m doing a search,
but I was in incognito mode, so it doesn’t know
where I’m at. That’s still not going to cut it.
Nope. Cause it technically does still know. where
I’m at. Gosh, I feel like incognito mode may
not give me all of the privacy protection that
I am due. Well, yeah, that’s another discussion.
That’s our after hours discussion on the podcast.
Other factors, because your history is also a
component here, right? Your search history? Yeah.
And this is a real big one for business owners.
So Google will promote or hide sites that I think
a person already knows or has clicked on. I have
searched for this. Two years ago when I did my
search, I did search for this last month because
I always do a search for something. Yeah. So
so you constantly looking for EAG is going back
to where it could either promote it and make
it show up higher or it could make it show up
lower based on that kind of customization. Gotcha.
Yeah. And then. Account and device personalization
is also a factor there. When we look at account
and device personalization, what is that? So
this is basically being logged into a Google
account. Using your voice search or searching
on mobile, it can trigger tailored SERPs to what
you’re looking for. It’s the way that… It’ll
customize what shows up in the local map pack
based on what it thinks you as a Google user
would like. And map pack is the, those are like
when it’s literally showing me a map and it’s
showing me a geographic connection based on where
I’m at physically at that moment. Yeah. Man,
there are so many things. What else goes into
the search result? So Google does A -B testing
and real -time updates. Constantly change the
layouts and rankings so that two people doing
the same search seconds apart might not get
the same result. Oh, man. And we’ve done that.
We’ve been in meetings, and I will pull up a
Google search, and Aaron Deckman will pull up
a Google search, and we rank in different spots.
All right. There’s a reason that… In Google
Search Console, that it shows average position.
Rather than an absolute position. It’s on average
because it’s a little like the probability of
a coin toss where you’re saying % chance it’s
heads, % chance it’s tails. Because they’re
doing A -B testing and they’re updating things
in real time. You could get a very different
search result if you are in a room full of people
and I’m on my PC doing this. Actually, devices
count too, right? Because if I’m on a PC and
I’m doing a search and somebody else next to
me is on a different browser and a different
platform and a different operating system and
a different whatever, and somebody else is on
a mobile device and somebody else is on a mobile
device with a different, you know, everything
else going on. Does all of that play a role as
well? Yeah. Yeah, it does. Well, that complicates
things in every possible way. Yeah. I’m beginning
to see a pattern here. Yeah. Every search result
could be very, very different. And that’s why
we do an average. Yep. Exactly. Interesting.
And the last thing is just the different search.
Features that they might show for a result. And
a SERP feature just for the people in the back.
The SERP search engine result page. Yes. Got
it. SERP features. Local map pack that I mentioned.
Videos. The people also ask question that’s up
there. That can push the top organic listings
down and that can be confusing. So you might
be. expecting to uh oh we rank number one and
you expect to see that at the very top of the
page but it’s not because they’re showing a map
pack first. And so that can just cause extra
confusion. There’s a lot of confusion going on
there. So it seems like as a business owner,
I may be the very worst person to do a search
for myself and get a good answer. So trust some
tools. Is that the message that we’re giving
at this point? Yeah. Yeah. You want to come up
with the search terms that work best for your
business. track them over time, and use our tools
to get an accurate representation. To tell us
where we’re at. Well, since search results are
so not confusing at all, and there’s nothing
that goes into it, why don’t we compound things
and go into the AI search? Because we’ve definitely
noticed that we’re starting to see some chat
GPT coming through as a search result for some
of our clients. Now, not everybody, but some.
And that changes the way that we’ve done search
historically. But some of the fundamentals are…
are the same. You mentioned that Google wants
to give you the best result and AI wants to do
exactly the same kind of thing. And some of those
same factors that lead up to how one might be
ranked for search are also involved in AI, but
they’re not all the same. So as we have given
the tip on this very program, that you may start
to see some decreased traffic. You may start
to see that AI is stealing some traffic from
you. Yeah, and I just read that there was a leaked
document from Google showing that they acknowledged
that their own AI product is going to steal clicks
from search. Oh, okay, okay. And they’re big.
They said their two options are steal from ourself
or have those clicks stolen by ChatGBT. So they
would rather steal from themselves. That makes
a whole lot of sense. That seems like a good
healthy business decision. Yes. And it goes right
along with another one that said they are urgently
trying to monetize AI. And if you thought for
a moment, if you had any other answer on your
worksheet, you were wrong. They will definitely
try to monetize that in some way. We’re still
figuring out what that way is going to look like.
And we don’t know that exactly yet. Yeah. And
it’s going to affect people at different speed.
Oh, OK. So you mean like different kinds of businesses?
Like if I have a website that does what? So if
you are a transactional website that’s, you know,
your company’s brochure, you sell widgets, you’re
not as likely to feel the impact yet. Oh, OK.
If you have a site that’s based on informational
content, that’s blog driven, knowledge based.
Things like news publishers, review sites, educational
platforms, those are going to take a big hit
a lot faster. Gotcha. Because they’re more apt
to, they’re more aligned to have an AI agent
kind of take that information and give it to
somebody. Yeah. It’s content that is more easily
digested and given back by an AI. And it’s also
something that you’re more likely to use an AI
to search for. Yeah. Historically speaking, I
know if we go SEO kind of way back, we would
say, take a look at what Google searches are
being done and answer that question. And if you
answer that question, that’s the same kind of
question that AI is going to just answer for
you and give you that answer. And so you have
no reason to click over. So there is a little
bit of shift there. Let’s talk about how to optimize
for AI search then, because if I want to come
up in AI searches. Can I just do that or do I
need to rank high already to even get to the
table? Yeah, it may seem obvious, but yes, one
of the best things you can do to show up in AI
is to rank on search engines. So this isn’t like
when we’re talking about developing nations and
they haven’t put in the infrastructure for like
all of the telephone poles and wires and they
just go, hey, we’ll put a cell tower over here.
Now everybody has it. We can’t really leapfrog
technology that way then, right? We should still
pay attention to SEO. We can’t just go, that’s
AI. Like, forget about everything you’ve known
about SEO. Yeah, because it’s being built on
top of search. It’s stealing the information
and all of the human knowledge that is being
surfaced by search. And the way you phrase that
is a little bit frightening for human development.
I’m a little frightened by that. Yeah, because
what happens when it’s all AI and we don’t –
it’s what people talk about the dead internet.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. There will be no
more original content and new information just
stops. Wow. But anyway. Before this gets too
dark, yeah, let’s continue. Let’s talk about
how you can – How can we optimize that? Because
there’s a difference in the way we speak to AI.
We have a conversational tone with AI. How can
we use that to our advantage? You can use natural
language that matches how users ask questions,
optimize for direct conversational phrasing that
AI models can easily interpret, and you can provide
in -depth answers that AI can summarize easily.
One thing that we encourage our clients to do
are use FAQ pages. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because that’s
the type of question and answer that AI is good
at. They can harvest that data pretty quickly
and say, oh, they asked this question. Let’s
give them this answer. Yeah. And the SEO guru.
Neil Patel says to put an FAQ on every blog post
you do. Oh, and he does that. Yeah. He’s living
that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like to see that kind
of thing. And we also talk about backlinks. Historically
speaking, your SEO triangle is the content and
technical and backlinks. backlinks are backlinks
still important backlinks are still important
they demonstrate that authority but kind of more
important now are brand mentions so if your brand
is featured in an industry blog or in a news
story those can have more get those brand mentions
give your site more authority than just a backlink
to your gotcha okay so so it is valuable to go
ahead and continue doing like public relations
kind of things and make sure that your brand
is featured elsewhere? Yeah, anything that you
can do to boost your brand visibility and secure
media placements that reinforce your authority
and your reputation. I, you know, as a marketer
who understands, you know, both brand awareness
and lead generation, I kind of like that because
it means that the brand awareness piece is still
really important. So I’m down with that. Yeah.
And another thing important to note is that you
want to have positive discussions. Oh, it can’t
just be negative. It can’t. Yeah, it’s not all
good. Oh, there’s no such thing as bad publicity?
Yes, there is to AI. Oh, there is in general,
too. Yes. Bad publicity is just bad publicity.
You don’t want that at all. This has been tremendously
helpful on understanding everything AI, Sir.
Now, I know that there is. a ton out there and
we will continue to bring all kinds of valuable
tips, but I like having this conversation. I
can’t though, not do a lightning round. So we
do this thing called the lightning round and
you don’t know what the questions are going to
be, but I have to ask because, you know, rules
are rules. There’s a lightning round. If we do
a featured section and, and they’re just, you
know, whatever kind of answer off the top of
your head. And it’s just based so that we can,
we can get to know you better and understand
who you are. What is. The best Thai dish. Because
you are a tremendously talented Thai cook, but
you experience Thai food from all over. Tell
me the best Thai dish. So I think there is a
phobia for Thai cooks, not phobia, but I’m too
good for Pad Thai. Just because everybody does
it. Everybody does it. Yes. But it’s kind of
my baseline for if it’s a good Thai restaurant
or not. Gotcha. And even if you’ve heard of Pok
Pok in Portland and Andy Ricker. Andy Ricker,
yeah. Yeah, he has done a couple of cookbooks
that I really like. And even he said in his original
Pok Pok restaurant, he would not serve Pad Thai.
Then he did, and then he opened up a Pad Thai
restaurant in New York that only served Pad Thai.
That only serves Pad Thai, because finally he
gets it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, shout out to
Andy Ricker. Do you have a Thai restaurant in
Kansas City that you would recommend to people,
or is it a family of restaurants? Well, I don’t
know. Waldo Thai is closing. I don’t know if
it’s closed already. But I read an article that
maybe they were just changing chefs and such.
But I saw the come get it before it’s gone. Oh,
got it. I know their chefs were leaving. Instagram.
It’s a different question mark there. Yeah. So
if it isn’t Waldo Thai. I like it. I think it’s
pronounced bar me, bar me. I be throw down here.
Oh, that’s in the crossroads down. That’s very
close. Yeah. We’ll just walk down the street
and get my. chicken pad thai thai hot and they
always are like oh yeah you ordered thai hot
cool and but you can handle the thai hot yes
and i like it because i walk in and they’re like
chicken pad thai thai hot yeah and i don’t have
to order uh at lulu’s i i had thai hot that was
that actually made me cry one time it was it
was very painful um we we learn a lot about our
clients and we pick up some very random knowledge
along the way um what’s important in terms of
ingredients When it comes to pet supplements
for joint health, is there an herb or a compound
or something that we should look at if we’re
talking about joint health? Yes. Well, you could
say glucosamine hydrochloride or HCI. It’s a
powerful, naturally occurring compound known
for its role in supporting joint health. And
you did look that up. I did. But I do know that.
See, we learn so much. We learn so many things
from crazy different areas of the world. Next
question, not about joint health and pet supplements.
Who would win in a fistfight? EAG CEO Michele
Markham or EAG Associate Vice President of Client
Services Heather Silliman? I’m going to go with
Michelle. Oh, yeah? I mean, Heather’s been in
bar fights. We know that. Yeah, but I just…
Actually, we don’t know that. This is slander,
but… I just think that Michele would win.
That’s, you know… Since that’s the name on
the check, she’ll appreciate that endorsement
either way. And my last question in the lightning
round, what character from the Lord of the Rings
books would you be in a previous life and why?
So this has been discussed quite a bit. This
is not a small topic. No, no. My wife’s whole
family will say, oh, yeah, you’re a hobbit or
you would be a ranger or something like that.
I would be an int. Oh, wait. What? One of the
tree creatures. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Treebeard.
Yeah, like Treebeard. Like Treebeard. Yeah. I’m
naturally kind of slow moving. I like to take
my time with things. I like to relax. So, yeah,
I would be an int. It seems like they have the
best life out of all of them. They can let the
mortal world pass them by and do the mortal world
things. Just go around and hang out with your
tree buddies. And sway a little bit every once
in a while. Man, I’ll take you out of the lightning
round. That’s a spectacular job, especially for
something you didn’t have any idea was coming
at you. That’s true. Those are some well -done
answers. I appreciate it. And thank you so much
for all of the tips and advice on SEO and AI.
And that is everything we could hope for. More
to come on all of those topics. Thanks for being
with us today. No problem at all. And that is
our show. Thanks so much to Wynn Shepard at EAG.
We like Wynn. And thank you for listening to
the Small Business Miracles podcast. Remember
to subscribe, leave us a five -star rating and
review. Drop us a line on the website at eagadv
.com if you have any thoughts. Until then, we’ll
be out here helping entrepreneurs with another
small business miracle.